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I’m thinking that you can’t go home again…it’s going to be a little different…excellent writing as always Will.
I am not familiar with your writing but this is evocative as well as poetic. As a very old woman myself I recognize the emotion and the context of this piece. As the species disappear and the friends who have been around a very long time move away or die, life can become lonely.
My husband and I tried this for a while….we bought Soy Scramble for tacos and spaghetti sauce and found it not bad, “Grillers” were also attempted and while I could fool myself in to thinking “not so bad” by adding tomatoes, lettuce, pickles and onion, my husband only said “very bad”. After a time we gave up and ate red meat. What else are our canine teeth for?
@spaceeagle- I cannot agree that those owning this type of material are automatically deviant, and therefore likely to abuse children. As pointed out by that way of thinking, every parent who allows their child to be in toddler beauty pagents should be rounded up and jailed as they obviously like seeing their kids adulterated.
@malice-I have to say I do not agree with your assesment that Manga cannot be considered art. I know your experience with art, but really beauty and art is in the eye of the beholder. The fact is that skill and time and thought go into creating Manga and it is therefore as artistic as Duchamp hanging a urinal on the wall.
As pointed out even in providing protection against obscentiy the punishment clearly does not fit the crime as a rapist or a child molester gets less time than someone with objectionable materials.
Of concern also is the “who decides” part. In a global community is it acceptable to have 12 jurors from one’s community judge a person. When we are talking about the internet does this still constitute a jury of peers?
Also I have not viewed the Lolicon in question, I have no desire to be prosecuted myself, and it doesn’t interest me, but one of my biggest questions is: Is it truly clear that minors are being drawn? I ask due to the fact that most Manga has a wide-eyed childlike quality to its characters even when they are supposedly adults…just a question I have.
Also I question what the hell the United States Post Office is doing randomly opening people’s magazine orders.
Of concern to me is the saddness and pain this ad probably caused mothers who had to make the difficult choice to save their lives. Shame on the Tebows for making it seem as if such a thing was as easy as “Giving it up to God”.
Hopefully this win in our nation’s capitol will send a message to the rest of the states, that we are serious about equality. I also hope it will not be struck down in any sort of special election as has happened elsewhere.
Half Herb Whore was the way our creator intended us to be, otherwise he would have grown animals made of soy. I nevercould understand making vegetable things look like meat, it’s akin to drinking non-alcoholic beer.
With all due respect to Neo’s piece, why not just be strong enough to say “I want to eat meat.” The whole “I can’t…” argument is bullshit. I turned my back on meat and never looked back after 30 years of enjoying hamburgers (with hard pieces of bone or god knows what else was in it) I just think it’s presumptuous of the human race to claim that they were “meant” to eat meat because of the shape of their teeth. Grainne, if there is a creator and God really intended people to eat animals, why did he instill fear in animals? Why did he instill some form of consciousness and memory in animals? Why did he instill pain and love in the animal species? All you can truly “prove” is that most of humankind currently enjoys the taste of meat and so they eat it.
So stop rationalizing your decisions based on some hypothetical logic. Stop feeling guilty for killing something’s mother and shoving its ass in your face and down your throat. Stop feeling guilty for subjecting animals to hormone-pumped, concentration camp-like harvesting and just admit that you enjoy eating other species. Last but not least kill your dog when you get hungry and eat it. It’s only fair.
I was mute on this subject until Grainne dragged ‘the creator’ into this.
Personally, I think people like to rationalize on this subject because they don’t want to admit their animal racism. You know, the whole it’s okay to eat cow and pig but not cool to boil kittens or poodles.
Just admit your flaws, meat eaters, and be proud of it.
Oh, I have no doubt the manga had underage gals. This is coming from Japan, where they sell used school girl panties in vending machines. The question on my mind is about the law. How can something with no definitive lines be upheld so strictly, and only to the few? And who is this law protecting exactly? The drawn characters feel violated! ha. It’s just ridiculous.
And the post office has opened my mail before. A few times in fact. Actually every time I order something from Japan it has been “inspected”
Another thing- I agree that the owning of manga does not make you a deviant. I’m sure EVERYONE has fantasies in their minds that they would NEVER act on in real life. And once again, if we are going down that road, then freedom of speech needs to be withdrawn, and the people need to be made aware of it. Drawn images are being policed, what next? Is the government going to be in my bedroom saying stop thinking about that!!! You are under arrest for that impure thought!
…ah, the year is 1984…
Our anatomical equipment teeth, jaws, and digestive system actually favors a fleshless diet. But it’s our god given right to eat another living being because all things are put here for man right? Geesh, we have a high opinion of ourselves.
I’ve been a vegetarian for coming up on, oh, 15 years. My eyes are bright, my skin beautiful, my hair down to my waist and healthy. I could probably arm wrestle this writer to the ground. Vegetarians on average also live longer, so in the end, say what you like, but I’ll get the last word. And it will be Ha-Ha! Because in the end I’d rather be on a journey of becoming a cow, then on a journey of becoming a graveyard for flesh.
“The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of “real food for real people” you’d better live real close to a real good hospital.” ~Neal Barnard
Vegetarians are okay with me, just as long as they don’t try to push their diets on me. It’s a big world and there’s room for everyone.
Mitch, you are right I was being flippant with the creator comment. I do like meat for meat itself, I have shot and butchered deer, whose spirit I thanked by the way and not flippantly. I also enjoy a wide range of vegitarian fare, and if starving, my dog may be a viable option.
I do however stand by the statement that it is silly to make TVP or soy look like little chicken cutlets.
P.S-ok,I was being flippant about my dog too, damn it, I need a 12 step program for flippancy.
да,но это еще и не все… надеюсь будет ещё
Grainnerhuad- In my opinion people have been conditioned to eat meat, so the fake substitutes help when quitting. It’s like people who have smoked for the last 30 years, might need some nicorrett gum to help them stop the habit. Some vegetarians also point to the fact that the deathless alternatives can be darn right tasty, and most people crave the seasoning, the charcoal smell, the bbq sauce, and not the actual flavor of the flesh itself, and thus it gives you the sensations you “grew up on”
I will say, in the veg community there can be some argument over this as well. They say you are eating meat in “spirit” I say…nothing died for my tofu dog, so no harm no foul.
I fail to see just what the big deal is – no matter what you eat, unless you are some kind of photo/chemosynthetic lifeform you have to kill something to get your food. The only question is what life do you kill to get your next meal: since I see no lifeform as being instrinsically more valuable than any other than any other I find the whole carnivore vs. vegitarian debate moot – you all kill something to eat!
So let’s just put this nonsense behind us and just eat what you like.
I think not.
Have you ever been to a slaughter house? Have you ever heard sheep scream? Have you ever watched blood gushing out of a throat? Or seen real FEAR in these animals stuck in hell? Electro-shocking them so they are immobile. Have you seen cows shit themselves in terror?
The distinguishing characteristic between animals and plants/bacteria/rocks is that animals are conscious beings capable of feeling pain and suffering. Animals are capable of feeling a desire to live. When you kick a rock, you do not have to worry that you have offended the rock. Or wonder if you have injured it. Rocks are incapable of such feelings. If I kicked a dog, it would feel pain, it would cry out, it would fight back, it would run away.
Plants lack any semblance of a central nervous system or any other system design for such complex capacities as that of a conscious suffering from felt pain. Even if we hypothetically discovered that plants do indeed feel pain, to minimize the number of plants which are killed, we should still become vegetarian.
This is because plants have to be fed to the livestock, and meat production is extremely inefficient. Only a small fraction of the food which is eaten by animals is converted into meat for human consumption. Therefore, by eating meat, not only do we cause animal death and suffering, we also end up killing many more plants than we would if we ate a vegetarian diet.
Wouldn’t it be something if a “superior” alien race came down and started munching on humans. Because they have a God given right, and hey, just because humans are screaming out in pain, fighting back, I don’t see what the big deal is. No worries, they are just putting the nonsense behind them, and eating “what they like”
I agree with Christopher.
[quote=Devil Doll]Have you ever been to a slaughter house? Have you ever heard sheep scream? Have you ever watched blood gushing out of a throat? Or seen real FEAR in these animals stuck in hell? Electro-shocking them so they are immobile. Have you seen cows shit themselves in terror? [/quote]
Actually, I have – and I really couldn’t give a damn. Anything that realizes that the end is nigh will experience a moment of existential terror before being snuffed out of existence: the same things happens to animals killed in the wild by carnivorous beasts.
[quote=Devil Doll]Wouldn’t it be something if a “superior” alien race came down and started munching on humans. Because they have a God given right, and hey, just because humans are screaming out in pain, fighting back, I don’t see what the big deal is. No worries, they are just putting the nonsense behind them, and eating “what they like”[/quote]
1. The whole concept of the “god-given right” is a load of bullshit – the fact of the matter is that it is simply natural for the strong to feed upon the weak (it’s a large part of how natural selection works – nature iusn’t the tranquil, loving “mother earth” our popular culture celebrates; it’s a vicious killer that only spares those who have the power to adapt to the means nature uses to kill life off).
2. Assuming that some other species came down and started hunting humans my first reaction would be to grab my firearms and be sure to kill them before they kill me or my own – I care nothing for this thing called “humanity” in general, but I’ll kill anything or anyone I have to in order to protect me and those close to me.
This was not the kind of reaction I expected to this article at all. I realize that I may have been a tad cruel to those who choose the non-meat route, but I was referring to the whack jobs that don’t understand balance – such as the “cast no shadow” groups of vegans. Come on – you only eat things that don’t cast a shadow, like a carrot? Look at the friggin’ spring of leaves, they cast shadows or because you decapitate them it makes it alright? I like meat, I don’t care if someone thinks less of me because of that, I’ve done a lot worse stuff so I figure its that’s the flaw that’s going to be shouted out as my failing, I’m doing pretty damn good. I have eaten dog, didn’t like it, it was too gritty. I haven’t eat any cats per se, but I’ve certainly eaten a damn lot of pu….ahem, sorry about that, often I only have two responses that my behaviour outwardly acts upon and since they both start with “h” and end in “y” it is only natural that a simplistic guy like myself gets them mixed up often.
Could I possibly interject a hypothesis? I beg to differ that there is a difference between the domestication of animals and the domestication of plants for dietary purposes. We define sentience according to how it relates to how the human being experiences it, yet can we truly discount the existence of other forms of sentience alien to our own? We communicate verbally and non verbally and to animals we credit characteristics of this to other animal species because we relate these to our own. Think of the Africans who use a series of clicks and such to communicate – are they lesser because they do not use the structures of our own language? It was enough to lessen the darker peoples into slavery for white masters and mistresses, correct? We attribute worth as how it could be applied to us.
The point was made that animals have a central nervous system while plants do not. Animals separate oxygen from the air and exhale carbon dioxide; plants separate carbon dioxide from the air and exhale oxygen. We bleed red blood; animals bleed red blood therefore they are the same as us. Plants ooze clear or amber-ish sap, they are different. Does not the sap run in a system of veins, does not sap carry out the same functions as our own blood? Animals to procreate need a male and a female component; are not plants the same, only the system of delivery and containment of the genetic information is different. Could it not be plausible that as plants seem to be the yang to our yin, there is a yet unidentified floral central nervous system? Plants do have senses – do they not react to day/night, heat/cold, pressure, touch? It is our own arrogance to pronounce that as there is no identified ocular or audition artifices that are identical to our own, it would be irrational to preclude the non-existence based on our own limited knowledge of alien biology. It could be genetic memory or is it conditioned responses that have a similar reaction to sensory input in plants? Plants live and die on biological processes – as do animals. How many legal arguments have been made in courts over long-term coma patients as to whether they are alive?
The other point I would like to make is that by claiming that vegetarians are not guilty of the sin of human arrogance of dominion over animals, in my opinion, is ludicrous. How many species of bestial territory and the accompanying animals have been eradicated in favour of farmland? How many animals and their offspring have been terminated in the name of grain or rice? For that matter, how many species of plants have been removed from the Earth in the name of horticulture? I may be a hick but I don’t see Mother Nature being as organized to put the same species of plant in a square pattern. Rationalize it how you will, but what it comes down to that mankind, and womankind, are killers – be it quadpedal, bipedal, finned, or rooted, we slaughter because we want to.
As for the assumption that I could be beaten in an arm wrestle – that could possibly be the truth since I have no real use or interest in that sport. Now if you said that I could be beaten in a chocolate pudding wrestling contest, well that may be a different story. Especially if Billy Idol is doing the music score with William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy providing the colour commentary.
“Well, it looks like ol’ A.B. took one to the ‘nads there, wouldn’t you say, Leonard?”
“Well, Bill, you would certainly know more about that than I would. You know what these two need?”
“Here we go again – okay, what do you think they need.”
“Whales, Bill, whales would make them see that this violence is senseless.”
“For the love of all that’s holy, Leonard – all I said that I wished that there was more Kingon and less you mind melding with a fish.”
“Whales aren’t fish, Bill…and if you look at the numbers, more people saw the movies I directed than yours.”
“Uh, well, yeah….but look at what’s going on now…what the hell are you up to? I’m doing a friggin’ fibre challenge commercials!”
“That’s because you’re full of sh….”
I guess perhaps two other people would be better as commentators.
Was it Chief Red Scout of the Oglala Sioux who said, “The white man made us many promises, more than I can remember, but they kept just one; they promised to take our land, and they took it.”?
@Christopher
So, basically…
According to you, cannibalism is alright.
We’re all just animals correct? The strong prey upon the weak correct?
I see myself as stronger than you. I’m gonna kill you.
I decide to become a homicidal maniac. There’s nothing wrong with it no?
From what I take from your argument, Killing anything is alright. Why do we have laws against murder? Who knows.
Killing animals in the masses. Raising animals to be killed in the masses.
You’re saying other animals don’t have families? Just because they cannot really do anything to stop us, doesn’t mean that they don’t want to.
To Christopher- I suppose I won’t care to continue a discussion with someone who doesn’t give a damn.
A.B. Thomas- I love the whole attitude of this article basically calling vegetarians, and yes stated again in the comment “Whack jobs”
My philosophy on diet and plants is based on current science. I love how someone who wants to justify their meat eating – their first response in a debate is always “you kill too” aka “the plant argument”. The topic is animals, but meat eaters never want to talk long about that. It is not a theory that animals feel pain. It is not a “what if” it is fact. So based on that fact, and yes, being able to put myself in another species shoes, I make my decision not to kill, harm, or eat them. As far as limited knowledge of alien biology, how can you not conclude that the plant isn’t begging to be eaten then? It’s as likely as any of the theories you’ve pointed out. Plants have no legs, no way to escape, they couldn’t run from a predator, they couldn’t escape the flames of a forest fire. There is no survival advantage to them feeling pain. So since it is currently just a bunch of theories, putting myself in the plants shoes, indeed as far as I can relate to them, and understand, since that is all anyone can try to do, study, learn, progress- I currently do not feel guilt about eating them. If and when science proves otherwise, I may have to rethink my eating habits. But as pointed out in my other comment, fewer plants would die from a vegetarian diet then a meat based diet in the end anyway. (This is because plants have to be fed to the livestock, and meat production is extremely inefficient. Only a small fraction of the food which is eaten by animals is converted into meat for human consumption.)
As far as farming, horticulture etc, I am all for going back to the basics. Humankind as we stand now is like a plague spreading over the land and destroying most everything we touch, including the very planet we inhabit. I never said I was blameless, or that I don’t wish things could be different. I’m also far from perfect. What I am saying is that I can make changes, slow changes, as that it seems is all mankind can do, I can TRY. I’m not of the opinion nor do I understand it, that if I can’t stop everything all at once, fix it all overnight, you might as well screw it all and continue killing everything you can. Since I can’t prove plants do/don’t feel pain, I might as well eat animals? Sorry, that logic makes no sense to me. We don’t slaughter because we want to – want and need are separate things. I would never argue someone starving who kills for survival, be it the animal side or the human side. But fat lazy Americans stuffing their faces with another slab of beef that they simply WANT and don’t need, and who gave no consideration to where the animal came from or what it went through, is disgusting to me.
And of course all the “whack job” vegetarians are to blame for slavery too, might as well throw that point in there. More then likely I’d be on the side, arguing that all men areequal, that slaves could feel the sting of your whip, feel pain, and you’d be on the other side arguing the damn plants again.
”And the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men.” ~Leonardo da Vinci
this is troubling on so many levels for me … any child today, can go to a computer and watch men with fists up their asses and woman with baseball bats as dildos .. I think that erotic art is viable, but when children are involved a society has to err on the side of caution … I think that people have to be responsible for their behavior but also believe that the overwhelming violence on TV and in film can be directly linked to the increase in violence in the real world today. Pornography is one of those tough issues .. no matter how well drawn or technically talented the artist maybe, is it acceptable for everything to be shown, can you really shout fire or terrorist in a crowded plane and expect the 1st amendment to protect you … we can never really agree on what exactly is of artistic merit, but I hope we can agree that unlimited expression under the guise of “art” is problematic at the very least. When it comes to what one can own or sell, is there no limit ?? Can I film an adult being murdered and raped by a gang of men, all handsome and beautifully photographed and call it art, can I hide and say I was just filming a socially unacceptable behavior that happens everyday ??, somewhere ?? We seem to have lost our ability to edit .. just because you can think of something, you can’t do everything that comes to your mind; just because you can think it. doesn’t mean you can say it …
all that said, I cringe at John Asscough being the arbitrator of anything .. and the government .. difficult case to consider … thanks …
Hell, I’ve been a vegetarian for seven years and I’m healthier, feel better physically, it’s even cheaper for my budget. I’ve also raised a perfectly healthy vegetarian child, and she loved the food.
I do it out of compassion for these mass-produced genetically engineered lifeforms whoses existences are a nightmare by ANY fucken standard, but mostly, I do it out of sheer environmental concern. It’s logical. It’s not a matter of debate. The meat industry is wasteful of our scant ressources and pollutes on a scale you can’t possibly conceive.
All these social-darwinist arguments about the foodchain and humans having this inherent right to gut and plunder is just the same anthropocentric arrogance that has led the way to global destruction since the Neolithic revolution.
If this was a hunter-gatherer society, in the same Earth that existed 100,000 years ago, I’d be more than happy to run around hunting with the group. But this is the world we live in. And you have to deal with the facts.
Now, there’s nearly seven billion of us, and most of the ecosystems are shot to hell, and we should take the most logical steps to avoid catastrophe.
But then, the American way is to pump gas, suck down those cheeseburgers and jump full speed ahead…. into a brick wall.
[quote=sleek11]So, basically…
According to you, cannibalism is alright.[/quote]
The very concepts of “right” and “wrong” and all derivitives of them (including “alright”) are completely meaningless to me – all that really matters is whether or not cirsumstances compell one to the act and the individual has the strength to see it through. All “moral” judgements regarding the actions in question are made post hoc.
[quote=sleek11]We’re all just animals correct?[/quote]
Yes – we are basically sentient apes.
[quote=sleek11]The strong prey upon the weak correct?[/quote]
That’s the reality of nature – one which “civilized” people like to either ignore or downplay because it hurts their artificial sense of security.
[quote=sleek11]I see myself as stronger than you. I’m gonna kill you.[/quote]
You can try – but I doubt that you are stronger than my 12-guage.
[quote=sleek11]I decide to become a homicidal maniac. There’s nothing wrong with it no?[/quote]
Once again, I reject such concepts as “right” and “wrong” – these are created after the act has been commited and society has acribed a judgement to them.
To answer the rest of your post would get rather repetative since you continue to based your arguments on the social fiction of “morality.”
Bill, it should cause shame for a lot of Americans that they have to be taught their history by an East Indian dentist, but in this case it’s a fact – that quote is accurate, and while it’s the product of an anonymous Sioux elder, it’s still true.
(Another which I’ve always found ironic was from an Athabaskan chief who, as he lay dying from a bullet wound – “Your great-grandchildren will rise up and curse you. They will be like us.” This was in the 1870’s. I’ve thought of that from time to time when reading the history of the hippie-movement in America.)
-W
I really wish that someone would challenge the separation of church and state, of course, in the Roberts’ Court, that reactionary glee club, this might be a problem, but strict constructionist shouldn’t be afraid to take a stand, instead of chipping away at this point. It will be interesting to see how the hand gun case from Chicago will be decided, a decision is expected by June …. the “right to bare/bear arms” is a right who’s time has long past. Gun ownership and the NRA are about as American as Dick Cheney’s military service, that “right” should be severely limited in a society of police forces and national guards … this is not 1799, no Indians are out there to attack us, our forefathers killed them all …. so much for such a “right” in the 21st century. I am tired of a nation on the brink of monetary and moral collapse, worrying about issues that should have been settle and obvious long ago … I never feel like a live in the home of the free .. or the brave. Free and brave people do not stand on the backs of their fellow citizens ….. people in Uganda and the Congo do ……..