‘Who Teacheth My Hands To War’ – Christian Fundamentalism in the American Military

Michael "Mikey" Weinstein-President; Military Religious Freedom Foundation-Photo Courtesy of Steve Most

By W.D. Noble

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
That has driven a culture mad.
What huge Imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn:
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

— W.H. Auden

Blessed be the Lord, my strength,
Who teacheth my hands to war,
And my fingers to fight.

— Psalm 144:1

 

 

When I was first acquainted with the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, I was tempted to dismiss it as one of several fringe-groups, placing blame on the Right, just as Rightist fringe-groups routinely do the same to the Left. However, fifteen minutes of research gave me pause.

That pause was wrapped up in the efforts of one man; the president of the Foundation, Michael (Mikey) Weinstein.

He entered the U.S. Air Force Academy – and graduated (no mean feat). He’s an attorney – who worked in the White House as assistant general counsel to Ronald Reagan. He knows the Constitution. These are credentials which only come to a select few, and only by hard work. This is the reason his current calling is so compelling. Mikey isn’t a man who takes pot-shots at the government from the safety of a computer screen – he’s earned both the respect of the nation, as well as the street-cred to turn around and challenge its government and its military.

Mikey Weinstein is an engaging man. In his presence, you’re aware of an energy that’s at once focused and committed; a practical idealist whose passion is tempered by a goal, and balanced by a good-natured humor (as evidenced by his Air Force Academy nickname, which stuck with him through the years).

While Mikey had his first encounter with Fundamentalist Christianity when he was in the Air Force Academy himself, it was the experience of his son, Curtis, at that same institution which galvanized his effort. Curtis had been called a ‘fucking Jew’ and a ‘Christ killer’. While the emotions were several, and on several levels, Weinstein was mainly angry and embarrassed – angry at what had been done, and embarrassed at what his beloved Academy had become.

He began by doing what he’d always done before a big case or a big project – lots of hard-nosed research.

What he determined through this process was that the Academies at West Point and Annapolis were also full of Fundamentalist Evangelicals who didn’t see it as a violation of their oath to proselytize their version of Christianity on anyone who wasn’t a ‘believer’. Hundreds of interviews later, he determined that the problem of ‘God’-over-country is pervasive to the very highest ranks in all branches of America’s military, and that the majority of these officers and senior enlisted personnel are not just Fundamentalist, but subscribe to both Dominionism and Reconstructionism.

At first blush, this all sounds like loony-bin talk. Mikey’s continued research – which brought him face to face with the highest levels of America’s military leadership – provides incontrovertible proof that America is as close as it’s ever been to an outright coup, sponsored by the military and supported by a large and growing subset of American Fundamentalist Christians, who believe that it’s not only their right, but their duty, to ‘take America back’ for their God.

The problem is so pervasive in America’s military that today, 50% of the chaplaincy appointments in America’s military are held by Dominionist/Reconstructionist Christians. The group Christian Embassy has embedded itself deep in the Pentagon – so deep that Mikey calls it the “Pentecostalgon.”

Dominionism and Reconstructionism

This subset of Christianity holds its roots in the belief that the United States is a ‘Christian nation’, founded by and for Christians, and that it is the duty of every ‘good’ American Christian to create a new America which subordinates civil/secular law and the Constitution to the ‘laws of God’ – particularly, conservative Christian understanding of Biblical law.

In their worldview, the Dominionists and Reconstructionists seek a ‘reconstruction’ of American law and society in keeping with their views of conservatively-interpreted Christianity –and it’s a simple process:

– Control the education of America’s youth, and you have the future.

– Control America’s courts, and you control not only its legal processes, but its government.

– Control the military, and you control the country.

In other words – a theocracy.

“We have a fanatical ‘religiosity’; in this case it’s known as ‘fundamentalist/dominionist Christianity’, mixed in with totally misguided patriotism.  Throw in a dash of actual weapons of mass destruction; throw in completely unfettered access due to the draconian specter of military command influence, and then add another swatch of total abrogation of the sacred oath to defend, protect, support and serve the Constitution of the United States – and what you have is a national security threat which is so serious in magnitude that almost no one can believe that it’s there, unless they’re complicit.”

The First Amendment

In my conversation this week with Mikey Weinstein, he was very clear and direct about the conflict. “There are sixteen ‘golden words’”, he said. “’Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.’ So, you know, we have what is clearly in our bedrock, foundational aspect of case-law which is that we separate physical and temporal, spiritual and terra-firma, or church and state in this country. That is something that is undeniable. The Constitution itself doesn’t say the words ‘separation of church and state’, the same way it doesn’t say ‘you have Miranda rights’, or that ‘women have the right to vote’ (although specifically, we have an amendment to that effect).

We have just a few words in our Constitution and even fewer words in the Bill of Rights (which, by the way, were not passed for the convenience of the majority, but they were passed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority).”

Sixteen words.

This is what has separated church and state; religion and law, for over two hundred years. It’s a fragile separation; if America wants to ignore that freedom and surrender it to Whatever Comes Next, we’re free as a people to do so.

Mikey made it even clearer:    “In our country, Christianity – in this case, specifically, Fundamentalist Christianity – has no special legal ‘place of honor’ or favoritism over any other religious faith or lack of faith, whether it’s Satanism, or Wiccanism, or Islam or Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism – Christianity is just another religion that receives Constitutional protection. Even though we’re mostly a Christian nation just by sheer numbers, let’s remember what Sandra Day O’Connor said (and boy, do we miss her on the U.S. Supreme Court); she made the statement that ‘In America, we do not count heads before enforcing the First Amendment.’ So we’ve determined that everybody’s particular religious rights – and in particular, fundamentalist Christian religious rights – will always be subordinated to the rest of American’s civil-rights – and that’s just the way it is.”

Representation

It would be easy to dismiss this as an ‘us against them’ argument, if it weren’t for the statistics. Mikey’s Foundation represents 96% Christians. In his own words:   “Now, our Foundation represents in excess of 16,000 active-duty United States Marines, sailors, soldiers, airmen, cadets and midshipmen in the three major service academies; ROTC cadets, reserve and guard units, Coast Guardsmen, and veterans. Ninety-six percent of our clients are Christians – practicing Christians.

The ninety-six percent breaks down into two broad categories – Protestants represent about three-fourths of that number (there’s a complete ‘rainbow’ of denominations; we have over 21 varieties of Baptists alone.) The remaining one-fourth of the ninety-six percent of Christians are Roman Catholic.

Most of our staff are Christians; our largest donor-base are Christians. Our largest universal organizational endorser is the California Council of Churches’ impact group, which comprises five-thousand, five-hundred Protestant congregations and twenty-one different denominations, with over six and a half million Protestants both directly and indirectly. So, being attacked as an ‘anti-Christian group’ is, of course, absurd. Being attacked as an ‘anti-God group’ is absurd. Our fight is not ‘Christian vs. Jewish’, or ‘Christian and Jewish vs. Islam’; it’s not a political-spectrum/right-or-left issue; it’s a Constitutional right-and-wrong issue. So, it’s absurd to argue the opposite side – I always like to throw in the Voltaire quote at this point; remember that ‘a person who can lead you to believe in absurdity can also lead you to commit an atrocity.’”

Seven Days in May

Mikey’s fond of a saying – “we’re no more than a Tiger Woods two-inch putt from a military coup.” Connecting those dots is a frightening experience. Again, the film “Seven Days In May” raises its head both as a cautionary tale and a prescient warning.

As the 1970’s waned, liberal chaplains left the military right along with liberal officers and enlisted personnel. In their place, due to the all-volunteer military, came people from increasingly conservative – and increasingly religious – backgrounds.

This led in turn to an insular military – one more concerned with itself than with its oath to defend the nation. Handmaiden to this effort was the broad support of an ever-increasing conservative ‘base’; more concerned with the fact that the nation had ‘strayed from God’ than with the notion of a Constitution which protected the rights of even the smallest minority.

Again, the process is simple – control the schools; own the future. Control the courts; own the legal system.

Control the military, and you control the country.

Fundamentalist Civilian Support

“The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ. This is our land, this is our world, this is our heritage, and with God’s help, we shall reclaim this nation for Jesus Christ. And no power on earth can stop us,” said D. James Kennedy, the driving force behind megachurch Coral Ridge Ministries.

“It took several years to realize that what we’re fighting is essentially a Fundamentalist Christian Parachurch Military Corporate Proselytizing Complex,” Mikey Weinstein stated during our interview. “It is enormous.   It is also inextricably intertwined into the very particulate of what we used to the Pentagon; what we here now call the “Pentecostalgon”.  It is everywhere.  It is huge; it is powerful, and it’s something that we’re actually going to have to stand up and fight. The problem is, of course, that you’ve got most of America, which is docile and supine; they’ll watch ‘American Idol’ and ‘The Simpsons’, but they don’t do much any more. And so, it’s very difficult to ‘speak truth to power.’”

The Peace Prize Nomination and International Advocacy

Mikey’s efforts have not gone unnoticed. His Foundation was nominated for the Nobel Peace Price for 2010. For all that, Mikey remains focused – “The Peace Prize is supposed to focus on what is done to increase fraternity between nations,” Mikey continued.

Recent video, aired by AlJazeera and replicated on YouTube, showing chaplains discussing the finer points of ‘spreading the gospel’ to the Iraqis in direct contravention of both the Constitution and military law is only part of the Foundations’ efforts. “In addition to trying to protect our members of the military from being mercilessly proselytized, we’re also trying to help stop the proselytizing of the Pakistanis, the Afghans and the Iraqis,” Mikey said.

Discussing the Coup

“I’m getting back (and I know that people who listen to this show and read our magazine) are going to want to know, ‘What about this coup? How could this actually happen in America?’”, I asked.

I went further, stating  “I read a book recently by a fellow who has a degree – a ‘doctorate in divinity’ – and he literally made the statement that “the First Commandment criminalizes idolatry.  The First Amendment legalizes idolatry.”  And, these people actually believe this stuff – this is something that I’ve written about in the past; with the support of a civilian populace, sixty percent of which believe Jesus is going to return in their lifetime, and the vast majority of these people believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old.  The majority of these people ‘unswervingly’ (as you said; ‘misguided patriotism’) support the military.  If the military is in this position, it’s not too hard to connect the dots and determine that very, very quickly we could be in a situation where we are living in the ‘Fundamentalist Christian States of America.’  How could this happen?”

“It’s easy to happen,” Mikey continued. “We could talk about that for days; Edmund Burke had it right; we’ve all heard it a million times – “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for enough good men (of course, he’s not being ‘PC’ there) to do nothing.” And look, the ancient Jewish book of law is called the Talmud, right? And one of its major credos is ‘silence is consent’. This was actually articulated far better by Martin Luther King Jr., who said “In the end we remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends, and there comes a time when silence becomes betrayal.” You talked about the First Amendment and the First Commandment; I like to tell people, “Look – the First Commandment says ‘you cannot have any other Gods but me’; the First Amendment says, ‘oh, yes, you can!’ – and there is the difference.”

America as a Christian Nation

He put to bed the notion of ‘America as a Christian nation’: “Now, I tell people all the time, because you’re asking, ‘how can this happen in America?’ – the people we fight believe, of course, that America was founded as a Christian nation. And, you know what? We don’t fight that any more. They’re right. America was, in fact, founded as a Christian nation – (pause; pregnant-pause) – but not the United States of America.”

Mikey continued, saying “You can look at the Massachusetts Bay Colony, where they had religious freedom – if you didn’t believe their view of Jesus, you were free to leave. Then, you have Rodger Williams of Rhode Island, who tried to form something which was similar to what Thomas Jefferson did in Virginia and elsewhere with regard to religious equanimity, making it clear that we’re not going to judge your value as a human being based on your religious views – because, let’s face it, particularly in the U.S. military, if someone believes you lack honor, credibility, courage, integrity, character, honorability and trustworthiness because of your chosen religious faith or the lack thereof, there’s no difference between that and telling someone that they’re stupid because of the color of their skin.

Now, as I said, this is a national security threat. We defeated the major fascists in the world in 44 months – Tojo; Hitler and Mussolini – and we did it without becoming fascists ourselves. We apparently have become the American military Christian Taliban and AlQaeda to defeat the Wahabbist Fundamentalist Islamic versions of same. Now, people don’t like hearing me say that. And that’s too frickin’ bad. Because this is the truth.”

Speaking the Truth

“As Orwell said, ‘When you are faced with universal deceit, speaking the truth itself is a revolutionary act.’ Well, this is very hard. We don’t train our young sailors, soldiers, marines and airmen, cadets and midshipmen to be revolutionaries. They’re supposed to salute smartly and follow lawful orders. If you’re being even gently evangelized by a military superior, ‘Get the frickin’ damn out of my face sir-or-ma’am’ isn’t an option for you. So, they come to us, and we do it. We’re militants. We’re not Americans United, the ADL, or the ACLU, or anything else like that. And, many of those organizations are fine – we have a very close relationship with AU; we love Reverend Barry Lynn and others. We are militant. This militancy is in support of the Constitution.”

Mikey continued, “We live in an America that has been severely dumbed-down; it makes me think of H.G. Wells’ wonderful definition of civilization – ‘It is a race between education and catastrophe.’ And, this is the problem when we have young members of the military that are like three-year-olds babbling at the dinner table when they raise their right hand and swear an oath to the United States Constitution. They have no clue what they’re talking about. At my alma-mater, the Air Force Academy, there is one optional hour – an optional hour – of instruction on the First Amendment in the four years that they’re there. Now, it costs the American taxpayer between three-hundred and fifty and four hundred thousand bucks to put a cadet through West Point or the Air Force Academy or a midshipman through Annapolis.”

Pissing Off The Islamic World

Mikey was adamant about the our reputation in the rest of the world. “There’s little more we could possibly be doing to act as an accelerant and a lubricant for already pissed-off and angry young Islamic men and women in Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Syria and Egypt to want to come and join the cause against us – because we look exactly like the tenth version of the nine prior Crusades which began in the year 1096.

To wit, our Foundation stopped the 523rd Attack F16 Squadron three years ago; the Air Force suddenly mothballed it – they were called, by the way, “The Crusaders” – their official Air Force logo emblazoned on the fuselages of their attack F16’s, (equipped to carry laser-guided nuclear and conventional weapons) – this logo was on their flight-suits as well as the aircraft – I can’t make this up; it was a giant Crusader’s helmet from the year 1096 (the year of the First Crusade), surrounded by three yellow stars in the shape of a cross (to represent the Trinity); to the left of the giant logo was a Crusader’s broadsword; to the right was a giant crucifix.

The level of stupidity here is unbelievable. It’s willful ignorance.”

Summing it Up

Our time was brief, and Mikey was determined to sum up what we’d discussed. “The difference between an Evangelical Christian and what’s called a Fundamentalist/Dominionist Evangelical Christian is that while they both have this great zeal pursuant to the Great Commission to turn everybody into a Christian like them (they want to proselytize; that’s pursuant to Mark 16:15 and Matthew 28:19; some of the last things Jesus is supposed to have said to his disciples, which is ‘go ye and make disciples of all nations.’) The difference is an Evangelical Christian will say, “Look; I really want to do this; this is my goal; this is my religious faith – but in my country, because of the separation of church and state, I have to comport my zeal in accordance with time, place and manner as well as directed by the Constitution.” A Fundamentalist/Dominionist Christian will say “screw that; I will do whatever I want to do. Nothing can constrain me in time, place and manner anywhere from proselytizing my version of Christianity.”

These people have a malodorous stench about them; it’s like walking into a ditch or an arroyo in my native state of New Mexico on a hot August afternoon and having your nostrils assailed by the stench of ten thousand rotting swine, it’s so bad. The first stench is virulent misogyny; the fact that women should be consigned to selecting food; preparing food; cleaning up after meals; spreading their legs, getting pregnant and raising children; the next one is virulent anti-Semitism; the next is virulent Islamophobia; the next is virulent homophobia – because these are people who are making ‘bad’ selections; becoming gay; because in America, if you take a nice, white, clean sheet of paper and a pencil with a nice, sharp point and draw a line down the middle of the paper, and on the left side of the line you list all the advantages of being gay in America today, and on the right side, you list all of the disadvantages, why, the advantages so outweigh the disadvantages that you’re going to choose to be gay!

Lastly, of course, is the virulent desire – the ‘fifth stench’ – to subordinate the view of what they view as ‘flawed man’s law’. This is the Constitution, which needs to be subordinated to their pristine gospel; this ‘weaponized gospel’ of Jesus Christ – which is what it is; it’s very ‘digital’; you’re either dead to God until you’re born again ‘our way’, or you’re with ‘us’. It’s ones or zeroes.

The problem is, as human creatures, if we devalue or place no value on somebody because of their chosen religious views then we don’t believe in and we devalue their Constitutional right to have protections and freedoms to practice whatever they’re doing.

We’ve seen this again and again; we’ve seen this ‘bus’ leave the station over and over and over again; and we always end up not with little creeks, streams or rivers, or even lakes or ponds – we end up with oceans and oceans of blood whenever this happens – and it happens a lot. And that’s why what we’re talking about is so frickin’ serious.

I don’t care if people laugh at me – I’m not running for office. I’m a lawyer and a businessman and now I’ve turned to this thing called the civil-rights fight, and let me tell you, it is not a picnic. It’s lonely; it’s dangerous; it’s expensive. You lose a lot of family and friends. You gain a whole bunch of others.

It is not like riding a unicorn through a cotton-candy forest handing out lollipops to little forest-animals who are singing in unison. It’s blood-sport.”

——————–

America is sick. Everywhere, the evidence abounds – from people like Randall Terry, who advocate the wholesale execution of ‘abortionists and atheists’, to Ann Coulter, who voiced the philosophy of Christian extremists everywhere: “We should invade their countries; kill their leaders; and convert them to Christianity.”

The nation is as polarized as it’s been since 1859. The end of the military draft in 1973 resulted not in a safer nation, but in the recruitment of personnel from increasingly conservative (and extreme) backgrounds. Extreme Fundamentalist, Dominionist/Reconstructionist Christianity, combined with the largest military on earth has resulted in an insular military organization, more committed to themselves and their Biblical worldview – with the ‘conversion’ of the rest of America and the world as a priority – than to the nation they purport to serve.

Reading:

With God On Our Side – One Man’s War Against An Evangelical Coup In America’s Military” – (Michael “Mikey” Weinstein and Davin Seay – St. Martin’s Press; 2006)

The Family – The Secret Fundamentalism At The Heart of American Power” – (Jeff Sharlet – Harper Perennial; 2009)

Military Religious Freedom Foundation” – (Website)

 

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Astra is one of the clever monkeys occupying space on the Third Planet From The Sun. While it was an early wish of Astra's to be one of the first to go to Proxima Centauri, he knows this is not to be; instead, you can find him here (some of the time) using simple tools to create communication. Holding up a mirror and saying 'Looky! Mistofer Emperor! Y'ain't wearin' no clothes!" is but one of the services he provides here. Others are subverting prevailing wisdom, peeing in people's Cheerios, trashing on their Imaginary Friends (he does this a lot,) and shifting paradigms without benefit of a clutch. He lives in Portland, Oregon, where he hopes he'll never have to learn the true meaning of some of his dystopian fiction.

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42 Comments on “‘Who Teacheth My Hands To War’ – Christian Fundamentalism in the American Military”

  1. Listened to the interview on Subversify Radio (way cool addition I might add). Scary and rather concerning. The sad thing is many christian fundamentalists do not see the parrallels to Islamic or other religious fundalmentalist groups. But I guess that is true about many of these groups. They all think they are so unique and right. Wouldn’t it be cool if they all just thought about what they all had in common? Why so stuck on differences? How about considering sameness for a change?

  2. Of course we should have a “theocracy” — which means Godly-rule, the Church, the State both being under God’s rule, God’s Law which is the highest Law of all lands. Amen! Here’s a helpful article re: “theocracy”:

    http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=668

    John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
    Communications Director, Institute on the Constitution
    Host, “TheAmericanView” radio show
    Recovering Republican
    JLof@aol.com

  3. John, apart from the shameless self-promotion (I’ve allowed it in the interest of discussion), you’re quoting an article by one of the most-notorious Dominionist/Reconstructionist ‘theologians’, Rushdoony.

    Masking your hate of the Constitutional protections of the First Amendment and your blatant call for a theocracy in America as an ‘institute’ or study-group doesn’t mask the fact that what you’re calling for is the tyranny of one group over another — something which Jefferson and the other founders prevented with the First Amendment.

    The Constitution is in diametric opposition to your plans for national dominance. If Mr. Weinstein and people like him are successful, we’ll never have to live in an America where everyone who doesn’t ascribe to your worldview is either a second-class citizen, deported, or shot.

    Unfortunately, you’re part of the problem.

    –W.D. Noble (Author)

  4. The Fundamentalists are creating the very “world church” that they fear and preach so hard against. It’s also full of just about everything that goes against what Christ taught… war, greed, vanity, etc.

    It IS difficult and dangerous to speak the truth to power, but we still have to do it. It wound me up in jail on false charges, the only charge I EVER had against me, though it was done in such a way that there can be no proof. Of course, there was no proof that the charges were true, either. I ended up pleading Nolo Contendere since they refused me a lawyer and access to my bank account. They’ve proven to me that there is no level to which they will not stoop to silence the truth or even just an alternative point of view. They are violent, ruthless, and devious.

  5. [quote=John]Of course we should have a “theocracy” — which means Godly-rule, the Church, the State both being under God’s rule, God’s Law which is the highest Law of all lands.[/quote]

    You do realize that “god” (whatever word you use to describe the concept) is a creation of society, right? Since “god” is little more than the abstraction and reification of a particular society’s mores and values, to accept the “law” of that “god” as superior to all other “law” is to, by default, establish the mores and values of one social order ahead of everyone else. No exceptions.

    Accepting such a notion is a threat to my status as a sovreign individual – if some one tried to subjigate my will to that of his “god” I will have no qualms with shooting him right where he stands…

  6. Christopher, I don’t need to be told about the ‘origins of “god”.’ I knew this a long, long time ago.

    The problem we face in America, however, is that the people who believe ‘god’ is real – particularly, the ‘god’ of the Old Testament – actually do believe this stuff.

    That’s hard for rational people to get their minds around – but it’s true, nevertheless. Because of this belief, they also believe that they have the right to rule America.

    They have this further belief in turn because they take everything in their rule-book (the Bible) quite literally – and part of that rule-book states that their ‘god’ will ‘judge’ a nation for its wickedness.

    In sum, we’re in the same place as thinking Germans were in 1930’s Germany – the land of Goethe was being turned into a land of lunacy; pointing out that lunacy was sufficient to mark one as a ‘traitor’; the eventual punishment for which was the tender mercies of a concentration-camp.

    While I commend your desire to stand for what you believe, it would make a lot more sense to support the efforts of Mr. Weinstein and those like him, who would prevent the necessity of ‘shooting someone where he stands’.

    If we get to that point, Mr. Weinstein’s statement about ‘oceans of blood’ will come true.

    I’d like to think we’re better than that. Time will tell.

    Thanks for commenting!

    -W.D. Noble

  7. W.D. Noble,

    My comment was directed more at John, but since you are the one to respond I’ll further explain my position to you: I know that religious fundamentalism is a huge problem today, but unlike most people on this board I see the time for a peaceful resolution to the conflict as having long since past – from where I stand I see this movement as having too much momentum to defeat through the normal processes of politics (which are corrupt as hell and not likely to move against them anyway).

    I hope I’m totally wrong, but I see an escalation to violence as inevitable at this point – hence my willingness to shoot those who would surpress me right where they stand, as force is the only language such people understand.

  8. I also believe we’ve reached a point of no return, but i don’t see the fundamentalist Christian band wagon as the main cause of this division which has really been in the making a long time. Until recent years, the fundamentalist movement has not had much credibility. Its strongest, pro-active voice went out in the determination of Darwin’s theory. I don’t think it’s a co-incidence that at a time when the economy and the environment have become a critical global concern, America degenerates into a retardant view that America must fight because it represents the right hand of God.

    The theocratic issue might ultimately plunge us into a blood bath, but would be the catalyst, just as the issue of slavery was only one of a series of determinations that led to the Civil War, but effectively served as an ignition switch. America finds it easy to sympathize with the appeal of a group that wishes to represent it as a Christian Nation. It carries a feel good policy of loyalty, faith and doing what is right. However, there are for some, the bitter realization that turning the other cheek to be slapped again and again, means there can be no more compromises without compromising personal integrity. America has sat back and watched the dissolution of homes and titles, and has done nothing. It has watched the infrastructure for sewage and clean water disintegrate and has done nothing. It’s logged the acres of abandoned strip malls and housing developments on valid agricultural land that represent financial boom and bust, but it hasn’t logged the defacement to our abilities to grow healthy foods.

    The America we currently know is an abomination. On a world scale, its population is among the lowest per square mile, but consumes the greatest number of resources. Its technology is so advanced, it knows how to grow gardens in a space no bigger than a bathroom, yet it uses its technology to wage war. It uses its technology to create placating drugs, addictive chemicals in foods, brain washing and mind manipulations but it does not use it to generate low environmental impact energy and careful development of our renewable resources. While it squabbles over its religious rights as a Christian Nation, it appears as a death head for the defenders of Earth.

    I’m hoping that one prophecy in the Bible proves right – the meek will inherit the earth. If they love it so little, the only wish is to defile it in the scramble toward heaven, i hope they rush to the detonation of their explosive charges so they can reach their goals rapidly. If they stick around ten more years, there won’t be much of an earth for the meek to inherit.

  9. Lot of hatred for God here, name-calling, no response whatsoever to what Dr. Rushdoony said about “theocracy.” Sad…a mind being a terrible thing to waste…

    John Lofton, Editor, TheAmericanView.com
    Communications Director, Institute on the Constitution
    Host, “TheAmericanView” radio show
    Recovering Republican
    JLof@aol.com

  10. For the record, not everyone at Subversify is anti-God. A lot of good discussion here and some good points on all sides. I find it difficult to hold an official view on the matter because of the extremes both sides go to prove their point. Why do we have to believe that if God exists, he is supporting one specific cause? Why do we have to believe that God is just a myth since certain right-wing conservative groups exploit his name? I think the God I believe in just isn’t concerned with politics; they are the product of human thinking. But we are always so eager to make God choose a side, aren’t we?

  11. John:

    First of all, I don’t ‘hate god’. “God” doesn’t exist – not to me. There’s not one iota of proof, apart from metaphor, that there’s a ‘god’ at all.

    Centuries have proven that societal success, not independent evidence, is the real litmus test for the continued presence of a ‘god’. Rome had their gods; when enough economic and military pressure destroyed the Empire after it had outgrown its own ability to support itself, its ‘gods’ died out, too.

    The same thing happened to the Egyptians – in fact, the Jesus-myth came from the Osiris-myth, as did many of the Psalms come from the recorded body of hymns to the Egyptian pantheon.

    Humanity has a habit of creating new ‘gods’ about every 2,000 years. We’re due – the conflict between the two largest Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam) may well result in a polyglot ‘god’.

    By the way – I’ve read Rushdoony’s book. It reads like Mein Kampf to me.

    John, it’s easy to be dismissive – especially when you believe to the core of your being that you’re right, and that ‘god’ is on your side.

    Please believe me — the Constitution is all that I need.

    –Will

  12. [quote=John]Lot of hatred for God here, [/quote]

    Kinda hard to hate something that you don’t have any reason to believe is anything more than a concept established by society to propagate mores and values – the fact of the matter is that “god” is an idea that has possessed many incarnations over the course of human history (ranging from a pantheon of beings personifying natural forces to all-encompassing energies [like the Tao or Mana] to the reified alpha male of the monotheist to the mystical philosopher’s “prime mover” and many, many more…) and your “god” is just one more concept to add to the already massive pile out there..

  13. In modern political conservative philosophy, their has been an adoption of pre and post American revolutionary Christian idealism; that a society that keeps Christian principals as its core values spares the tyranny of a government influence in social morals. Despite the fact that this notion has systematically been proven false ( even by some of the very founding fathers, who used public funds to re-educate the godless savages occupying their land), the idea of a society free from governmental religious control is still embraced by many conservatives. The military academies in this country certainly agree with this concept. Once eons ago, I had the desire to become an Air Force Cadette. At that point in my life, I had already abandon religion in favor of a more secular existence. However, I was told matter-of-factly by the admissions staff that it was impossible to excel in ANY of the military academies let alone the Air Force Academy, whose adherence to evangelical Christianity favored ( read: downright tyrannical) . It was a crushing blow to me, and I eventually gave up hope in ever going ( despite all the effort I put into getting then Senator Bob Graham to write me a glowing reference). It also opened my eyes to the influence of intolerance, and good-ol-boy political posturing by ideological elites. They protect their own, and given the choice they more often than not won’t help you out if you don’t tout the line.

    The weight thrown around by religious fundamentalism in the armed forces is sometimes illustrated in almost comical fashion. When the U.S. military had secured Baghdad, there was a huge Baptism that was aired on CNN right in the Tigris river. Seriously , what type of message do you think that sent to every militant watching? You almost get the feeling like they WANTED to provoke an uprising for good measure.

    At some point, I’d like to see this expanded into a series. I think the idealism in the military is a symptom of a much broader problem of religious shenanigans by political ideologues. If you base your political framework around one religious ethos, the unwritten rules that expound from that notion start to encompass just about everything that the ideology deems relevant: Banks, Military, Law Enforcement ect. Perhaps not as persuasive as in the military, but its there none the less.

  14. Holy shit. Literaly.

    You know, there are days it’s difficult to figure it all out, you know. You read enough books, and you use such archaic things like ‘reason’ or ‘logic’ or ‘dialectics’ and sometimes, you just don’t know… are the Christian right a bunch of rabid scumfucks or just brain-damaged sycophants? I’m split down the middle.

    Brother John, please help me here, are you people annoying idiots or evil fucks?

    Let’s hear what the late Bill Hicks had to say about this.

    “I, ah…this abortion issue in the States is dividing the country right in half. You know, and even amongst my friends – who are all highly intelligent – they’re totally divided on the issue of abortion. Totally divided. Some of my friends think these pro-life people are just annoying idiots. Other of my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks. How are we gonna have a consensus? I’m torn. I try and take the broad view and think of them as evil, annoying idiot fucks.” – Bill Hicks

  15. @ John Lofton
    I am having difficulty discerning where you are coming up with the idea that there is any hatred of God in this conversation. Nobody in fact brought God to the roundtable until you did.
    What is at issue here is the trouble with not understanding while we can choose to uphold the ideal of a theocracy we cannot then choose the consequences of having one.
    Some of us are scared shitless by those consequences.
    Some of who are scared BELIEVE in God
    Some of us who BELIEVE in God BELIEVE to our core that a theocracy is dead wrong for eveyone.

    But that is neither here nor there, you want us to hear your arguement and I would be happy to hear from you please submit it to our proboards. I want to know about what it means to be a republican in recovery…did you have to apologise to everyone you hurt or affected in a negitive way through your republican actions?
    I want to know if there is a well thought out plan for someone leading the nation in God’s name, because as far as I know aside from the Vatican no leader claiming to speak with God AND showing any form of rational thought wants to lead a nation.
    And what exactly is the plan for those who don’t believe in the prevailing God of any given leader? Bear Pits? Gladator games? 5o years in the salt mines? Or do they jusd thave to live by God’s laws even if they don’t believe they are just? Or even question whether anyone knows what the fuck God thinks if He/She/They/It exists?

    Please though I seriously want to know.

  16. “And what exactly is the plan for those who don’t believe in the prevailing God of any given leader? Bear Pits? Gladiator games?”

    Actually, the ‘law’ calls for direct execution by either hanging, burning alive, or stoning for ‘idolatry’ and murder (for which the ‘law’ states ‘no mercy may be shown’), and for sixteen other ‘offenses’ (including ‘working on the sabbath’ and ‘cursing one’s parents’).

    Strictly speaking, us atheists are off the hook, but in the same vein as liberal Christians – we’re not worshiping any other gods, but we’re not ‘god’s chosen’, either, by virtue of not living to the standards of the ‘law’. However, anyone who worships another ‘god’ (it’s unclear whether Jews are part of this or not, as there’s also a promise that ‘god’ will ‘bless those which bless you and curse those which curse you’ [ in reference to Israel].) – will be subject to execution.

    This means everyone from the nearly one million Muslims living in America to the 1,000-odd ethnic Sami who still worship the spirits of reindeer (the Sami hail from above the arctic circle in northern Finland; their culture predates that of the Israelites by almost a thousand years, and is the oldest culture in Europe).

    Depending upon whose version of a theocratic America you read, these people might be given a ‘bye’ (as long as they liquidated their assets and left the country within a period of time – 90 days to a year; say) – or they might find their property ‘forfeit’, and subject to summary execution.

    As to lesser crimes (charging interest on a loan; jaywalking; selling drugs) — the ‘law’ calls for whipping as a primary punishment. Theocrats state that this system would be good for America – because, among other things, it would abolish the prison system – there would be no appeals, and no second-chances; no attempts at rehabilitation – the punishments would be immediate (one author actually stated that a person sentenced to a whipping would be ‘able to return to his work the next day, assuming he had a job.’

    (By the way – women who aborted a fetus, along with the doctor who performed the procedure, would be subject to summary execution.)

    I’m in the middle of researching more information on the subject – there are several books – and I’ll admit, they’re well-written – on the subject, giving some rather exhaustive if tedious analyses of the ‘law’. Yes; most of it is a chilling read; I fail to see how these books can be written by a sane mind – but then again, these are people who interpret the Bible as a literal document, and genuinely believe not only in the existence of their ‘god’, but in the power of that being to exercise punishment against those nations which have rejected that being.

    As such, they believe that the ‘clock is ticking’ on America – and that if we want to turn things around and receive their ‘god’s’ ‘blessing’, we need to turn to that ‘god’ and implement the law of the Bible.

    (Since this is commentary, and not an article, I’ll come out and say it – much of what I’m reading is VERY disturbing; it’s like reading Mein Kampf).

    Sleep well.

    -W

  17. In response to John Lofton’s comment about theocracy, I read the Rushdoony article he linked. According to Rushdoony, a theocracy is rule according to the law of a god. Now, I assume I know which god Rushdoony and Lofton have in mind. But why, if I do not follow that god, should I be ruled by that god?

    That’s a rhetorical question. I don’t expect anyone to give me an answer that could ever persuade me. The point is that I prefer to live by the rules of my own beliefs, not someone else’s. I believe I am moral, sane, responsible, and a contributing member of society. I don’t have to have Rushdoony’s or Lofton’s gods to be the positive, contributing person I am.

    The notion that a squadron of our military would hang a mantle of “Crusaders” over themselves in an Arab land is not just insulting to the people who live there, but wrong is a very fundamental way. We did not go to war in either Afghanistan or Iraq to convert the masses. No pope directs us to depose dictators or root out corrupt leaders. And certainly, our churches did not direct us to head over to Central Asia for its oil, oil pipeline possibilities, or desert wonders.

    Whatever the reason for these wars (I believe I understand the rationale for the first one; I still shake my head in complete disbelief and dismay over the purported rationale for the other), our “need” to bring Christianity to the heathen Muslims had nothing to do with it. They had their shot at Christianity and after trying it on for about 600 years they rejected it – over a millennium ago. This is not the same as the Pope’s attempt to forcefully convert the ignorant natives of the New World. Any attempt to convert them not only violates the sovereign laws of their own countries but is extremely insulting to the targets of this conduct.

    Proselytizing has never done anything but piss me off. In fact, I don’t know a single person who has ever claimed to enjoy being proselytized at. Unless, of course, they let the crusaders in the door just so they can fuck with them. Now, I do know people who will do that – and enjoy it.

    I’ve linked this article on a Freethinkers Forum I haunt. I hope that’s okay.

  18. [quote=Aramink]I don’t expect anyone to give me an answer that could ever persuade me. The point is that I prefer to live by the rules of my own beliefs, not someone else’s. I believe I am moral, sane, responsible, and a contributing member of society. I don’t have to have Rushdoony’s or Lofton’s gods to be the positive, contributing person I am.[/quote]

    It doesn’t matter how “moral,” sane or contributing to some concept of a “greater good” one believes himself to be – the social establishment always has the last word on such things: if it finds you to be “immoral,” insane or useless to its purposes (according to whatever arbitrary criteria the order adopts to make such judgements) it will treat you accordingly. My point is that, on a fundamental level, society is anti-individual and doesn’t give a flying fuck about how one evaluates one’s self as a person: it will do all in its power to make you conform to how it believes you “should” live or else dispose of you.

  19. Will this is an illuminating interview, and extremely frightening to me who watched as Sen. Joe McCarthy went on his witch-hunt in the Fifties while the nation stood by and did nothing…if one man had not had the courage to point out “the emporor has no clothes” who knows how far the Republican Party would have allowed him to go. Mikey quoted some writers and philosophers in the interview, but all the time I was reading it this quotation kept coming to mind, from a 1930’s book by Sinclair Lewis entitled “It Can’t Happen Here” as follows ” “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
    This is familiar to many people, and I am assuming that most who comment here would have heard this, or even used it to express their own fear. I read it for the first time in a high school Social Studies class in 1942. This was a prophetic statement that was an allusion to the rise of Fascism in Europe. How easily this could have spread during the Great Depression (as opposed to the small “d” current depression) is a heads-up to us now. The pervasive infiltration of this radical Christianity into the military, as the result of the cynical Neocons whipping up the fear of the right-wing fundamentalists is frightening, and while I have many times warned against the use of Blackwater in conjunction with the military as a threat to Democracy, I hadn’t thought of our military as a potential threat. I do now.

  20. Kitty, your comments are meaningful to me, for two reasons – you LIVED through the last batch of nonsense which passed for foreign and domestic policy in America; we should be thankful to the people who voted for FDR that we actually HAVE a country now.

    As we’ve discussed, it could have so easily gone to Lindbergh had he chosen to run – and the disaster of his racist/isolationist policies would have reduced us to second or third-world status by now.

    Mikey often quotes Lewis in his own writings (as have I); it truly amazes me how many people have never read “It Can’t Happen Here”. The story of the book’s creation is even more compelling: He wrote it after going to Germany and simply taking a look around; interviewing Nazi officials and seeing the complicity of the ‘church’ in Germany with the Nazi machine.

    Of course it can happen here. The cost? In Germany’s case, it was twenty million dead (including around ten million in the ovens) to put down the perverted religion of Nazism.

    –W

  21. I was a little slow to realize that you are W.D. Noble. I have not read as much here as I would have if I had that information in my mind. Slow or careless? Either is inexcusable. I did not know the story of Sinclair Lewis having visited Germany, but I do know that Charles Lindbergh was a Nazi sympathizer, and without FDR we would have gone the way of Germany. The Social Studies class taught by Doctor Thornton was the beginning of my political education. The day that we went to class and Willie Takahashi wasn’t there, and he explained the reason, with tears in his eyes, I was awakened to injustice by government decree. My education on the S.F. Peninsula in the Forties was a wonderful experience, and opened my eyes to the fact that my father was a racist. I am pleased to know you W.D.

  22. Will~
    With mention of the varying “protestant” groups beneath the umbrella of ‘christianity’ where, I wonder, do you believe the “Mormons” fall? Seeing as how many ‘fundies’ consider Mormonism as a cult and not christian, by their definition, (mainly because they lack education in the doctrine of Mormonism) I just wonder if you believe there will someday be a ‘Nazi’-type secularization and mandated disbandment of certain ‘protestant’ faiths due to the presence of a fundie, government sponsored or mandated “church of the U.S.A”?

    I ask this with a friend of mine in mind who is currently enduring a situation wherein her ‘LDS’/Mormon brother passed away last week. She and her husband have helped their family with funeral plans at a ‘Christian’ church (prohibitive distance involved and cost of getting him to a ‘ward’ building in his ‘stake’). My friend was highly offended severely at something that ‘fundie’ “pastor” said to her family, a difficult thing to do since my friend is one of seven children and the only girl. Offending her takes extreme persistence or profound ignorance as in this case. As the story goes, my friends family inquired of this “pastor” of the local ‘Christian’ church whether or not THEY could perform her brothers service (give the talks/sermon, sing songs, etc…)there at ‘his little church’ (the pastors words) to which he agreed without hesitation. After further discussion of details, finances, etc… the family expressed that they would need time to dress the deceased in his Temple clothing and set up a few things prior to the service. Thus began the ignorance, the pastor stated that he would be happy to perform a ‘christian’ service for my friends brother but he could not allow a ‘mormon’ service or any other type of ‘cult’ service to be performed in “his little church”.

    Another question I’ve asked throughout the years is this…. At what point did the term/title ‘Christian’ become anything more than to be “Christ-like”?? Scores of history shows us that of all things religion itself is the cause of almost all wars this world has experienced from the beginning of time but to be “Christian” does not mean to be religious,it means to be like Christ. Of all my friends I can’t think of anyone more Christian than the friend I’ve just spoken about.

    Where will the fundies stop?? With Mein Kampf and Nazism in mind, will we not learn from the past?? Are people truly this ignorant?

    Thank you Will for the forum and for the many warnings people should listen to. Important for people to think about is unless we belong to the “church of the Union” in the end, we wil all be targets. This problem is not just for the Atheistic/Buddhist/Islamic/Jewish/Wiccan/etc… community, it is one we all must prepare for.

    ~Best Wishes my Friend~
    ~T

  23. Theresa:

    Thank you, first of all, for the comment. I hadn’t expected it.

    Secondly, this isn’t a ‘religion’ issue or a ‘god’ vs. ‘anti-‘god” issue — it’s a constitutional issue, the primary problem being a threat to the First Amendment.

    I can’t speak to Mormonism – I know the concepts of its founding, and the primary differences between it and mainstream Christianity – but to me, any organization which still bashes gays and favors its own people for any business transactions is a pretty insular, narrow-minded group, no matter how kind individual members might happen to be.

    You’ve probably heard me say this before — Christianity is the ‘chicken’ of the religious world; you can take whatever you want from the ‘book’ as ‘seasoning’, and create whatever you want – it tastes like chicken.

    To me, ‘who is’ and ‘who isn’t’ doesn’t matter — because it’s possible to self-identify as a Christian, then pull what you want from the ‘book’ to justify it, people like myself have to take such commentary and self-identification at face-value: If a person says they’re a Christian, then I have to accept that.

    Of course, Adolf Hitler self-identified as a Christian – he belonged to the same church as did Benito Mussolini (Catholic); Josef Stalin was an Orthodox Russian (although he did, much later in life, renounce all belief).

    As stated, in the end, none of this matters — what matters is individual freedom – the freedom both of, and from, religion. That’s why we have a secular republic, and the sixteen words in the First Amendment which protect that secular founding.

    To me, nothing else matters. As I said to another commenter, the Constitution is all I really need.

    You point out a very scary and very real possibility – a “Fundamentalist Christian States of America”, based on a narrow interpretation of the ‘book’, rather than the Constitution. Sinclair Lewis, in his book “It Can’t Happen Here” made that possibility very real. His ‘Everyman’, a reporter named Doremus Jessup, said “they’ve realized that this country has gone so flabby that any gang daring enough and unscrupulous enough, and smart enough not to SEEM illegal, can grab hold of the entire government and have all the power and applause and salutes….”

    Lewis summed up the situation nicely — “When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag, carrying a cross.”

    Sleep well.

    -W

  24. I consistently pray that my enemies be stupid. Thank you for proof that God answerers (sic) my prayers.” — Gary McCullough

    (Gary McCullough is the president and founder of Christian News Wire, the preeminent P.R. firm for the ‘Christian Nation’ movement. His clients include Operation Rescue. He wasn’t able to pick a fight here, as no one rose to his bait – but after this length of time I thought it best to at least ‘out’ the man for what he is.)

  25. Really cool! The theme you might be using to demonstrate away your content is magnificent! Where can I come across it? That is the very first time We have visited your blog site, as I’ve observed it via a yahoo research, I’ll definitely be back again. I have bookmarked your blog.

  26. MIKEY WEINSTEIN, JESUS-BASHER

    What kind of wine has Mikey Weinstein been drinking?
    As an anti-Christian Jewish supremacist and as the president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he’s doing all he can to create an anti-Jewish backlash and help bring about the predicted endtime Holocaust of Jews that’ll be worse than Hitler’s.
    Neither Falwell, Hagee nor any other Christian initiated this prediction. But Weinstein’s ancient Hebrew prophets did.
    In the 13th and 14th chapters of his Old Testament book, Zechariah predicted that after Israel’s rebirth ALL nations will eventually be against Israel and that TWO-THIRDS of all Jews will be killed!
    Malachi revealed the reasons: “Judah hath dealt treacherously” and “the Lord will cut off the man that doeth this.”
    Haven’t evangelicals generally been the best friends of Israel and persons perceived to be Jewish? Then please explain the hate-filled back-stabbing by David Letterman (and Sandra Bernhard, Kathy Griffin, Bill Maher etc.) against followers of Jesus such as Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann.
    Weinstein wouldn’t dare assert that citizens on government property don’t have freedom of speech or press freedom or freedom to assemble or to petition the government.
    But God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the “free exercise” of religion – especially by evangelicals – a freedom found in the same First Amendment. Significantly, this freedom was purposely listed FIRST by America’s founders!
    And Weinstein wouldn’t try to foist “separation of church and state” on strongly-Jewish Israel, but he does try to foist this non-Constitution-mentioned phrase on strongly-Christian America.
    In light of Weinstein’s Jewish protectionism and violently anti-Christian obsession, Christians in these endtimes should be reminded of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:9 (see also Luke 21:12) that “in the synagogues ye shall be beaten.”
    Maybe it’s time for some modern Paul Reveres to saddle up and shout “The Yiddish are Coming!”

    PS – Some, like Weinstein, are so treacherously anti-Christian they will even join hands at times with enemies, including Muslims, in order to silence evangelicals. It was Weinstein, BTW, who put pressure on the Pentagon to dis-invite Franklin Graham from speaking there on the National Day of Prayer!
    PPS – Weinstein is an echo of the anti-Christian, anti-American Hollywood which for a century has dangled every known vice before young people. We seriously wonder how soon the lethal worldwide “flood of filth” (global harming!) that Hollywood has created will engulf and destroy itself and help to bring to power the endtime Antichrist (a.k.a. the Man of Sin and the Wicked One)!

  27. “But God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the “free exercise” of religion – especially by evangelicals – a freedom found in the same First Amendment. Significantly, this freedom was purposely listed FIRST by America’s founders!”

    “As an anti-Christian Jewish supremacist and as the president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he’s doing all he can to create an anti-Jewish backlash and help bring about the predicted endtime Holocaust of Jews that’ll be worse than Hitler’s.”

    “In light of Weinstein’s Jewish protectionism and violently anti-Christian obsession, Christians in these endtimes should be reminded of Jesus’ warning in Mark 13:9 (see also Luke 21:12) that “in the synagogues ye shall be beaten.”
    Maybe it’s time for some modern Paul Reveres to saddle up and shout “The Yiddish are Coming!”

    Huh???

    ‘Anti-Christian Jewish supremacist?’ ‘God-hater Weinstein maliciously wants to eliminate from government property the “free exercise” of religion’? ‘anti-Christian obsession’?

    Maybe we should all ask what wine you’ve been drinking.

    You certainly didn’t read the article.

    To recap:

    1. Most of Mr. Weinstein’s clients are Christians.
    2. The sixteen words of the First Amendment specifically preclude religion from government. If religion is practiced in one of the military academies, provision must be made for the free exercise of all religion, without persecution – which is the reason his Foundation exists.

    Frankly, with your ranting about ‘end-times’, beatings in synagogues and ‘predicted end-time Holocausts’, you’re sounding more than a bit insane.

    You’re welcome to your religion – any way you want to practice it. You can believe any of that bizarre stuff you just stated – just please don’t try to introduce any of it as law, or try to make it part of the military – because that’s where people like Mr. Weinstein come in, and where people like me get involved.

  28. Cordoba was a symbol in the medieval era. One of peace and multiculturalism. Not only were non-muslims allowed to practice as they pleased, they were also protected. One of the Golden Ages of jewish thought occurred during the Andalusian period. I’d like to see that in medieval “christian” europe. Jews so much preferred muslim rule to Christians that they opened Toledo’s gates to allow in the Muslim armies. Would they do that it Cordoba’s muslims preached hate and intolerance

  29. If I may respectfully nitpick, good sir: Fundamentalists and Evangelicals are mutually exclusive groups. The difference between the two (I say this as one who has moved from Fundamentalism to Evangelicalism) is a matter of, shall we say, manners. Both would probably be classified as “conservative” on one level or another, but they’re not the same thing.

    Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut sine qua non criteria other than, of course, being Christians. Oh, and inerrancy of Scripture, with whatever that may entail.

    Please, oh please: don’t throw in Evangelicals with Fundamentalists. Thanks.

  30. “If I may respectfully nitpick, good sir: Fundamentalists and Evangelicals are mutually exclusive groups.”

    Gary, that’s a bit of nuance which most of us outside those movements wouldn’t likely recognize – but which might best be illustrated by a math-logic diagram: Not all Fundamentalists are Evangelicals/Not all Evangelicals are Fundamentalists/Some Fundamentalists are Evangelicals/Some Evangelicals are Fundamentalists.

    You’re welcome to explain why the logical conclusion I’ve reached, above, is either right or wrong. I’d like to hear it.

    Best,

    -W

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  32. Well, we can certainly see where all this Christian proselytizing has gotten us — the greatest military in the world. Folks, be wary of this man. He IS dangerous to the foundations of our nation.

  33. When the Constitution was written, it was unthinkable not to be a Christian of one sort or another. Search “Christian quotes of the founding fathers” and you’ll clearly see their sentiments. The Constitution dedicated “in the year of our Lord” pretty much sums it up. George Washington also dedicated America to God at the corner of ground zero in New York city.
    They fined a man $500 dollars and jailed him for blaspheming Christ in town, which today would be thousands. So I don’t think “Satanism” was protected either lol.

    This guy “Mikey” is a punk who works for the UN globalist illuminati. And nothing more glamorous than that. America was fought for and founded by Christian men of God who would never tolerate this garbage. Real liberty doesn’t come from doing the wrong things and spitting in Gods face….. it comes from doing the right things, and doing the things that God approves of WITHOUT regard to “political correctness”.

    A nation which embraces the things God hates shall be judged and destroyed.

  34. “A nation which embraces the things God hates shall be judged and destroyed.”

    Well, all right then. Clears that up for me.

    I’ll concede that some of the ‘founders’ had Christian sentiments. I’ll still go back to the sixteen words in the First Amendment – (“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….”) those are pretty plain.

    You can also read the text of the Treaty of Tripoli, authored by Jefferson: “…As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” This, too, is pretty plain.

    There are many, many other examples of law here in the United States where we have maintained a separation of religion and government.

    Mikey Weinstein is not a ‘punk’. He’s a retired Air Force Colonel wearing half the medals he deserves.

    As to the rest of your statements – regarding ‘real liberty’, ‘spitting in ‘god’s’ face’, etc. – they’re irrelevant. Over 15% of the U.S. population doesn’t believe in your ‘god’ – or anyone else’s, either.

    The value of Weinstein’s organization is to defend religious liberty in America and protect the Constitution. I’ll stand by that.

    Your ‘god’ can defend himself.

    -WDN

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